Peace of Mind for Pet Parents Episode 024: The Other Doctor in the Room

Episode Transcript: 

Hello, and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents. I'm Karen, and I'm here with Gail. And today, we're going to talk about something that is deeply important—something that might just change the way you think about your pet's care, especially near the end of life.

Because there comes a point in most caregiving journeys where the medical advice can only take us so far. And what do you do then? What steps in? What kind of wisdom is available at that point for you and your animal?

So today, we're going to explore what it means to recognize that there's a different kind of presence available for you to tap into—and to trust. One that may gently invite us to shift from doing to more being. And I think that's something you often encourage us to do, Gail. So I'm going to let you start at the very beginning and tell us: who is the other doctor in the room? Because that’s a phrase I’ve heard you use so often—whether we're speaking here on the podcast or with students in Animal Hospice Group. Why don’t you start us out with who the other doctor in the room is, and how you discovered her?

Gail Pope:
I'm not entirely sure where to begin, because it’s been such a long journey… leading to such a simple truth. The other doctor in the room is Dr. Mother Nature—really, the foundation of the world we live in.

I guess I have to go back to the early days of BrightHaven, in the mid-1990s. At that time, I was working for a conventional veterinary practice with the most wonderful veterinarian. He changed my life and taught me everything he knew. He was very eager to learn about holistic medicine, which was something I’d never even heard of back then. He had a family, though, and he said, “If you learn anything in the work you’re doing at the sanctuary, share it with me.” He is just such a wonderful person.

So I was working for him, learning more than I can ever share about conventional care—and loving every minute of it. And then we had a volunteer at the sanctuary—her name was Vicki Allinson. She was... well, a little strange. Actually, more than a little. She had some strange ideas.

But the animals loved her. Little by little, she became part of daily life at BrightHaven. She was always there—always supportive, or sometimes a bit bullying! She was tough. And the first thing she got tough about was the diet I was feeding the animals. She said, “You know, you’re not feeding a natural diet. Mother Nature didn’t intend animals to eat kibble.”

I remember telling her, “But this is veterinarian-recommended! You don’t understand.” And we had this huge donation of kibble—bags and bags stored in the garage, worth about $800. I was adamant: there was no way I was changing my mind.

But over a short period of time, one by one, the animals were winding down or becoming less healthy. We were treating them as best we could, and then they would generally die—usually through euthanasia. It was what we knew, and we did it with love. That was just the way of things.

One day, Vicki said, “Why don’t you come back and just think about diet again? Think about the overall level of health of the animals.” I asked her what she meant, and she said, “They don’t look terribly healthy. I think we could talk about treating them a little differently. But let’s start with diet.”

Eventually, she persuaded me to try what she called a natural raw meat diet. I thought the animals were all going to die! But they didn’t. They flourished. A new energy hit the sanctuary. Old cats were chasing toys across the floor. Fur that used to look old and rumpled began to shine.

I was completely immersed. And then came homeopathy—which at the time felt like complete voodoo to me.

I had a cat named Cindy who was very close to the end of her life. In fact, I had planned to take her in for euthanasia that day. I called Vicki and asked her to come babysit because I didn’t have anyone else at the sanctuary. She said, “No, but I can offer you some help.” I asked what she meant. She said, “I honestly think you could treat her with homeopathy.”

I told her, “Vicki, she’s dying.” She said, “I hear you. But why don’t you let a friend of mine talk to you?”

I said, “There’s no way. I need to go to work. Could you just babysit?” But she said, “No, I’ve got an appointment. I have to leave.” So there I was—stranded.

A few minutes later, the phone rang. A voice said, “May I speak to Gail Pope?” I said yes. And she said, “My name is Dr. Christina Chambreau.” Christina loves this story. She said, “I understand you’ve got a kitty that’s in need of some help.”

Right away I tried to apologize. I said, “Oh, I’m so sorry. Vicki doesn’t understand. Cindy’s very close to the end of her life, and I’m sorry to have troubled you.” There was silence for a moment. Then she said, in Christina’s very unique voice, “Excuse me—who’s the veterinarian here, you or me?”

I was shocked. Embarrassed. I apologized again. She told me to sit down. Long story short—she prescribed a homeopathic remedy, which Vicki brought over, and Cindy lived on.

Sometimes it takes a miracle to shock you awake.

The next day, when I was back in the office—I was working as a receptionist— the lab called. They said they wouldn’t charge us for one of the lab results that came in because, obviously, the cat had died. “You’re such a good customer,” they said, “we won’t charge you.” And it was Cindy’s blood work. So that really underscored the fact that… wow. She didn’t die. She was still alive and kicking.

That brought me into the world of homeopathy. Christina introduced me to 24 different veterinarians who volunteered to work with our animals. It was a wild time! Very scary at first. I still leaned into antibiotics and drugs for upper respiratory infections—things I was familiar with when new animals came in.

But little by little, I started to see that they didn’t need the antibiotics. They didn’t. Over time, it showed me a new way. And again, Vicki would say, “We’re leaning into the plant kingdom. We’re leaning into Mother Nature’s world. We’re working wholistically.”

Then she said, “I have someone else for you to meet.”

Next came Western herbs. Greg Tilford, the founder of Animal Essentials—still doing amazing work today—visited the sanctuary. He offered to donate some herbal products for us to try with the animals. Tinkle Tonic for the renal girls, and so on. That began our journey with herbology, which I had known nothing about up to that point.

And that took me even deeper into the world of Mother Nature.

Gail Pope:
At the same time all this was happening, Vicki was also practicing this very strange thing called Reiki. I didn’t really understand what it was—she talked about energy and the world of Mother Nature again. But the cats seemed to love it. The dogs loved it. The horses would put their heads down and just… smile.

One day I asked her, “Could you teach me this stuff?” And she said, “No, I’m not meant to be your teacher. But your teacher will appear when you’re ready.”

And sure enough, Kathleen appeared. Kathleen Prasad. She became a central part of the BrightHaven “menu for healing,” which was gradually developing over a period of years. As I was exploring natural medicine—first tentatively, and then getting totally hooked—I began to understand its deeper meaning.

That’s probably when I started doing some consultations, sometime in the early 2000s. People would ask, “What do you do? How do your animals glow with health—even in their twenties—or even when they’re dealing with chronic illness and they’re younger?” And so, Mother Nature became such a reality to me.

That’s when I really started learning about symptoms and how we treat them. So many things. I’ll stop talking for a minute because, you know me—I’ll just keep going!

Karen Wylie:
Well, it’s really interesting to hear you talk about this, because there were so many different modalities that came into your awareness. And it’s not like you could adopt them all at once. You really were taking one step at a time. 

Gail, you’ve described what it was like for you to take each of these different steps, adopting different modalities, and allowing Nature—in all its different forms—to take more of a lead in the care you were providing to the animals at BrightHaven.

Let’s now think about the individual pet parent who has a pet with a difficult diagnosis—or even a terminal one. What does it look like when a family starts to trust Mother Nature?

Gail Pope:
That’s a difficult question, because it’s not easy to step into that world all at once. It really comes down to the baby steps I always talk about.

If you're only familiar with conventional veterinary care—or the human medical world—it can feel overwhelming. If you’re coming into it before the terminal stage, I’d say a good place to start is thinking about diet. You might look at immune or organ support and start to see gradual improvement in your pet’s health. You could begin dabbling in herbs or homeopathy—just exploring what appeals to you.

It’s really about education. Learning about the different options. Let’s say you’ve just received a diagnosis—then what’s the best way to approach it?

Now, if you’ve received a terminal diagnosis, I think it’s more difficult to change course. Some people come in already having dabbled in holistic care, or they’ve done it before and want to stick with a natural path. But for people who are completely new to it, I’m not always sure it’s a good idea to try to go fully holistic right at the end of life.

Maybe after a difficult diagnosis—where there’s still time—you can start taking baby steps. Do something a little different. But again, it depends on the animal. It depends on the diagnosis.

Very often, diet is a good place to start. But sometimes it’s not. It’s really about what’s right for that animal—and what’s going to be best for the caregiver, too.

Because for the caregiver, it can be a really big learning curve. If you say, “Okay, that’s it—I’m going to treat holistically now,” it’s not always the best choice, especially if you’re in a crisis. But you can embrace some of the holistic modalities—things like immune support or organ support. And yes, diet, especially if you’ve been seeing some health issues like fleas or chronic inflammation.

If the animal is open to a gradual or even an immediate change in diet, some of them love that shift. But again—it comes down to what’s right for your experience and your animal.

Karen Wylie:
Right.

Gail Pope:
And Mother Nature isn’t just about healthcare. She’s about care—care for oneself, whether you’re the animal or the human.

It’s about honoring the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees… about taking time in nature and being with each other. That’s all part of Mother Nature’s gift, too.

And then, when we step into the more energetic side of things—that’s powerful. That’s where Reiki comes in. That’s where animal communication comes in. There are so many different paths. It’s like a huge globe of opportunity—a menu, which is why we started calling it our menu for healing. You pick out what you’re drawn to from that menu, and that’s the path you take. And if it doesn’t work for whatever reason—or if it doesn’t feel like it’s bringing the balance you need—you can step sideways, try something else, or add something new.

Karen Wylie:
Right. Right. So well said.

I think it’s hard to make that switch once your pet is nearing the end of life. Because you’re likely to see signs of decline no matter what—regardless of what food you’re offering or treatments you’re using. At that point, their body may already be naturally starting to prepare for death.

Gail Pope:
Yes—and that’s such a good reminder. Because that’s also a time when maybe you don’t change what treatments you’re using. But you do begin to look at Mother Nature in a new way.

We use the term “Mother Nature” as an umbrella—it can cover so many spiritual or religious beliefs. But if you start to embrace the idea that Mother Nature is the other doctor in the room—then you begin to recognize that she designed the processes of life. She designed birth. And she designed death too—really, the same process turned upside down.

Karen Wylie:
We’re leaving…

Gail Pope:
Yes. And then we also have the process in the middle—living and loving and caring for the body that we live in.

I always like to think about the fact that our bodies are like houses. When we’re born, it’s like stepping into a brand-new house—“Oh my goodness, I’m a baby!” And then, when we’re dying, we gradually reach a point where we step out of that house and into the next phase, whatever that may be. We all have different ideas about what that “next house” looks like—whether it’s a transition or a rebirth. But when you acknowledge that there’s a force greater at work, everything shifts.

Sometimes, the most difficult thing for us as human beings is simply being. When your loved one is approaching the end of life, it’s hard to stay in the moment. You’re dealing with worry, stress, anguish, fear—all those overwhelming emotions. But when you can step back into Nature, you can let go a little.

It helps to know that the symptoms of dying are actually very clear—both in the human and animal world. And once you know what those symptoms are, it brings relief. Because then you can say, “Whew, okay… that’s normal. That’s part of the process.” And once you know what’s not part of the dying process, you can turn to medicine—whether conventional or holistic—to help. Because if there’s pain from a chronic illness, it will most likely still manifest through the dying process.

But if there’s no pain, and what you’re seeing aligns with what you’ve read or learned about the natural symptoms of dying—then you don’t need to treat those things. Because Mother Nature—the other doctor in the room—is very skilled at her job. She’s orchestrating the natural wind-down of the organs, the slowing of blood flow, and everything else that occurs.

It’s difficult to trust that process if you don’t know much about it. But once you start to learn what’s normal and what’s not, then whether you’re sitting with a mother, a grandmother, a father, or an animal, you can begin to recognize what’s happening.

When they don’t want to eat as much… then less… then nothing. When they’re drinking less and less. You can see the trajectory, and it’s a normal one. But for us humans, in the middle of life, all of those things—loss of appetite, not drinking, low energy—are signs of danger. So we fear them. We’re trained to treat them.

But at the end of life, we have to invite that other doctor into the equation. Because she has her part to play. And if we interfere too much—if we try to override her—we may end up creating a more difficult journey for the animal we love.

Karen Wylie:
Right.

Gail Pope:
And then we start to see euthanasia as the most sensible thing to do.

Karen Wylie:
As something we have to do. We fall back into that question of, “What can I do?” I think that’s such a difficult point in our care journey. It’s something we tried to explore a few weeks ago in the episode about how to know when to stop treatment.

So this conversation we’re having today—on one hand, you’re describing the need to let go of the need to control and fix the problem. But, of course, part of what we’re trying to do is not just maintain our pet’s life—but to prevent them from leaving us.

We want to keep them with us for as long as possible. And we think: surely there’s got to be another vet out there, another consult, another treatment we haven’t tried. And you and I have both talked about this—sometimes we meet pet parents who’ve consulted six, seven, even eight different practitioners. All from completely different modalities. Because they’re still trying to fix something that… maybe isn’t meant to be fixed.

Their pet is clearly on the path of leaving. And they’re trying to stop that. Trying to control that. And they’re not yet in the flow of being.

It’s such a difficult time. To be a pet parent and to try to honor what is naturally happening… that takes incredible strength.

This is one of those areas where I immediately understood your idea of “the other doctor in the room.” I had been calling it something else—I used to say, “I’m honoring what my pet wants to do.”

Gail Pope:
Yes.

Karen Wylie:
But I really think we’re talking about the same thing. It’s the same force. Our animals want to follow the path of Nature. And in many ways, they’re more in tune with the other doctor in the room than we are.

That’s always the saddest moment for me—when I start to see my pet stepping down that path. They’re not eating. They don’t want even the most irresistible treats. They’re not interested in the syringe feedings. It’s not irresistible anymore.

They’re stepping onto a different path. And I have to wrestle with that emotionally—to accept where they are.

Gail Pope:
That’s our biggest challenge as caregivers.

Karen Wylie:
It really is. And it’s not something where you just watch them for 30 seconds and go, “Oh, I get it now.” For me, it usually takes two or three days. I have to see the pattern happen again and again—so that I know it’s a clear path they’re walking. Not just a moment of “they didn’t feel like it today.”

Gail Pope:
Yes. And what you’re describing here is really about education.

It’s taken me a lot of years, and a lot of animals, to get to where I am now. You’re in a similar place—you’ve also learned from many animals over the years. But a lot of people haven’t had that experience. And they may not have learned much from the human deaths they’ve encountered either.

So I think it’s important to talk not only about the other doctor in the room—but also about the world of hospice care.

The comfort care approach. Because right now, in this conversation, we’re talking about what happens after a terminal diagnosis. The other doctor—Nature—comes with us into that space. But we’re also talking about how to continue caring in that time, while also starting to let go.

Meditation can help. But once you really understand the philosophy of the other doctor in the room, it becomes easier to be in the moment. Your mind gets a little clearer. You’re no longer completely filled with anguish and worry—about medications, treatments, feeding times, and all of that. You begin to let go a little.

Gail Pope:
The importance of Mother Nature is that you have an ally. You have a hand to hold. And the more you start to trust and step into this circle—bringing in the aids and supports you need—it can release some of the worry and tension.

Karen Wylie:
Yes. Not completely, ever.

Gail Pope:
Not completely, no.

Karen Wylie:
I totally agree with you on that. Even if people do learn more about what’s possible with hospice care, there are still things for you to do. But it’s not about fixing, or controlling, or preventing anymore. It becomes about going with—providing support and making sure your loved one is comfortable.

And that requires a different mindset. Otherwise, it’s, “Oh my God, I better call the vet. I don’t know what to do—it must be time to euthanize.”

Gail Pope:
I’m afraid these conversations always come back to euthanasia as the kindest way for a life to end. And I don’t disagree with that completely. Sometimes it is the kindest way. But it’s not the kindest way for every life to end.

Again, our animals will often show us. They will follow the path to a natural death. And sometimes they show us very clearly that euthanasia isn’t meant to happen.

Karen Wylie:
Right.

Gail Pope:
I often advise people who don’t know the way forward to make an appointment for euthanasia—just to have it in place. And then I suggest they sit down with their animal and talk it all through. And very often, the animal will pass before the vet arrives. Before the appointment even happens.

I think we have to bring both Mother Nature and the animal into the equation during this time. And maybe—just maybe—we need to step back a little instead of trying to manage everything. Let go just a little. Take everything into consideration. And then feel into what feels like the right way forward.

Karen Wylie:
What do you think the role of intuition is in all of this? Do you think some pet parents can begin to feel when it’s time to stop pushing—for more treatment, more trying to fix and control?

Gail Pope:
I think our intuition is probably the most powerful tool we all have. But I also think that, toward the very end of life, our humanness gets in the way of it.

From my own experience, intuition is always there. But my brain still comes up with reasons why I should or shouldn’t, or didn’t, or couldn’t. It’s such a difficult time. That’s where things like meditation and Reiki and finding a sense of daily balance really help.

And Dr. Mother Nature? She’s very happy to sit with us and help us through that time.

That’s why we created the PEACEFUL checklist. Because it can help. You might say, “He seems restless,” and the checklist reminds you: restlessness is very natural. In people too. As the body begins to change, it can become a little restless. And that’s okay. We can work with that—preferably in a holistic way—but of course, everyone finds their own path.

Just being in the moment… walking through that journey with the animal you love more than anything in the world—that’s the most powerful place to be.

Karen Wylie:
Yes.

Gail Pope:
Scary.

Karen Wylie:
It is scary. And yet…

Gail Pope:
It can also be very beautiful.

Karen Wylie:
It really can. And it’s more beautiful if you’re not fighting them at the very end—if you’re not still trying to prevent them from leaving you.

Gail Pope:
That’s right.

Karen Wylie:
So hard to do. And yet… I’d like to get your input on this, too. Because we’ve touched on this before—our cultural views of death and dying.

Gail Pope:
Yes.

Karen Wylie:
The way our culture avoids death. The way it’s been outsourced—both in human medicine and veterinary care. And because of that, we’re protected in many ways from being close to it, from knowing as much as we could or should, and from being truly involved with our human loved ones during their death.

Gail Pope:
Yes.

Karen Wylie:
Sometimes, we haven’t really accepted that someone is dying until the day of their death—or maybe not even then.

Gail Pope:
You’re taking us straight back into the hospice conversation. Because if you recognize that dying, like birthing, is a process, then you understand: dying often begins months before we consciously accept that death is coming.

We see a gradual winding down—but unless you’re really used to it, you don’t notice it. Not until something happens that makes you panic.

But it is a process. It takes time. And it takes education. It takes learning. And it takes acceptance.

Karen Wylie:
Well, I think each of us is doing what we can—doing what we know how to do. That’s why we’re having these conversations. Why we teach. Why we show up in the ways we do—to try and bring this information to more people. So that they can at least consider it… as an option. As another path they could choose.

Gail Pope:
You know, I love reading books about human hospice care—especially when the author shares stories of the patients they’ve worked with and the different paths they took through that chapter of life. The scenarios they describe—those moments of panic, indecision, or deep connection—they’re exactly the same with animals.

We all panic about the same things. We all make decisions—or avoid decisions—in the same way, whether we’re caring for humans or animals. That’s why I think those books are such a rich source of education, especially for people who haven’t experienced much animal death.

Karen Wylie:
Yes.

Gail Pope:
Because humans who are dying can still talk to us. They speak our language. They can describe how they’re feeling and what’s going on inside. And in those moments, Mother Nature’s role as the other doctor becomes very clear—especially for those who do acknowledge they’re in a natural state of winding down, and they’re okay with it.

Karen Wylie:
Right.

Gail Pope:
But not everyone is okay with it. Some want to try this drug, or that treatment, or fly to another country to explore more options. We’re all different. It’s all part of being human, isn’t it?

Karen Wylie:
It is. I’ve read many of those kinds of books too—we’ll have to compare notes sometime! And what always strikes me is how many of the authors—especially those on the medical team—end up writing not just about medicine, but about the energetic and spiritual aspects of dying.

Even though their role is medical, what they feel compelled to share is what they’ve seen and felt—the shifts in energy, the transitions that can’t be explained purely in clinical terms.

Gail Pope:
Yes.

Karen Wylie:
And I think that’s so powerful. Because humans can communicate their experience. They can say what’s happening. But with our animals—well, I’m looking right now at my beautiful Cali girl lying here beside me—and I have to rely on other ways of knowing. I have to look into her eyes and try to feel what she needs or wants next.

Gail Pope:
That’s it.

Karen Wylie:
So, not surprisingly, this has turned into a really big conversation!

Gail Pope:
I was just going to say the same thing. I think we’ve done and dusted it—for today.

Karen Wylie:
Yes. And we’ve touched on so many different elements. This conversation connects to so many of the other topics we explore. But as we bring things to a close today, I’d like to leave our listeners with a question to sit with.

If there’s a pet parent out there, listening to this podcast—maybe they’re facing a tough decision with their animal, trying to decide whether to pursue one more treatment or to simply be with their pet—what would you want them to hear from the other doctor in the room? What message might be waiting for them, if they’re ready to receive it?

Gail Pope:
Well, I think there are two things. First, a reminder that it’s all about love. That’s what life is about—the love and the relationship.

For every one of us, no matter who we are, it’s about doing our best with love. Because after someone we love has died—whether that’s a person or an animal—what gives us courage, what supports us, is knowing that we did our best, and we did it with love.

Karen Wylie:
And we did it together.

Gail Pope:
Yes. Together. And truly—I can’t think of anything more beautiful than that. Can you?

Karen Wylie:
No. That’s what I always strive for. If their life is going to come to an end, that’s how I want to be feeling when their physical life is over and their spiritual transition begins.

I want to be able to say, “I did what I could. I was present. I was loving. And we’re okay.” That feeling of peace is what I hope for.

Gail Pope:
You summed it up perfectly.

Karen Wylie:
Well, my dear, thank you—as always.

Gail Pope:
Thank you.

Karen Wylie:
This is such an important concept. And the way you speak about it… when you say “the other doctor in the room,” it holds so much. It encompasses not just natural medicine, but spiritual trust, presence, connection… all of it.

Gail Pope:
It really does. And it's powerful. As humans, we’re always so focused on whether we’re doing the right thing or not. But once we open to a more spiritual approach—once we include Nature—that’s what it’s all about.

Karen Wylie:
That is what it’s all about.

Well… you’ve said it all. There’s nothing more to add. You’ve left us with such beautiful, inspiring final words. Thank you again, and we hope this conversation has been meaningful to those of you listening.

We’d love for you to reflect on your own journey with your pet—and if you’d like to join us for more connection, our Cup and Conversations gatherings are held every Thursday at 10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern. You’ll find more details at brightpathforpets.com.

And we hope you’ll join us again next week on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents. Thank you so much for being with us.

Gail Pope:
Goodbye and thank you.